My touchstones of urban fantasy are Charles De Lint and Mercedes Lackey, the latter for her Diana Tregarde, SERRAted Edge and Bedlam's Bard stories. Lately I've been devouring Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden books -- also urban fantasy, definitely.  Oh, and wasn't it MZB who wrote The House Between the Worlds?  I think that can count as a proto-UF.

To me, urban fantasy is a story which takes place in modern times, in a settled area (I'll flex a bit on the "urban" part; my first one took place completely in Griffith Park [duck]) and which includes fantasy elements.  I suppose vampires and weres can technically count as urban fantasy, although I think they're better off in their own categories; they have their own rules and tropes, and both vampires and weres can be in stories which take place anywhere in history (present, past, future) and still be part of the vampires or weres subgenre.  Technically they could fit UF, but separating out the present-day weres and vamps from their past and future sibling-stories to put them into urban fantasy doesn't serve anything, I don't think.

And when I say "fantasy" I usually think primarily of magic, more fairy tale elements than horror story elements.

I'd count Highlander, yes.  [nod]  It's magic, it doesn't pretend to be SF, and the main focus of the story and action takes place in the modern world.

Witch Blade, yes; the blade is magic.  Aeon Flux no; that's science fiction.

Science fiction is science fiction, whether it's set in the future or the present, or even the past; steampunk is a subset of SF.  Stargate definitely isn't urban fantasy to me; it's firmly in the SF category.

There's also a tighter definition of urban fantasy, where it's definitely set in a city, with the focus usually on the inner city, and the setting itself is treated almost like a character.  And it's a dark, gritty, threatening character at that.  That's absolutely UF, but I think a more useful definition is a bit looser.  Count the dark-city stories as UF, definitely, but don't require it.

Then there's romantic urban fantasy -- UF is getting popular with the het romance genre and has sprouted off a subgenre of its own.  They're still calling it urban fantasy, and not urban fantasy romance or something, but it's definitely got its own direction, its own emphasis and genre definitions.  It's practically a requirement over there among certain circles that the protag of a UF be female, and that she be into designer this and fashion that -- sort of a vampiric (or zombie -- zombies are big these days) version of Sex and the City.  Hopefully that's just a phase, but whether it is or not, I think there is (or should be) a clear line of separation between the original UF and the new UF coming out of het romance.

Angie

Posted at 1:05 AM on June 18, 2009

Okay, this is fasinating. While I agree with some of the titles (Witchblade, Highlander, etc)  I think we have to look at a couple of the modern hip movies that have brought comic books to life lately.  We all know Spidey, and now X-Men, even the Incredible Hulk.  Don't you think they classify as 'urban fantasy.'  Go back even further, Batman, Superman, The Shadow.  All started in the comic world, moved into mainstream with TV and movies.  But the average adult knows the stories attached to them, how they came about, what the characters stand for, etc.  We all grew up with them  Some of us have tried to live up to standards quoted by them (Superman: truth, justice and the American Way.)  I'm sure some of the gadgets dreamed up in Batman and later by Q in James Bond have inspired us to try to make them for real.  And we don't even have to think about Trek and what it inspired in all of its' versions.

I'd defined urban fantasty as anything we've read and viewed for years, knowing it wasn't real, but wishing that it was.  Our heroes that we've grown up with, our inspirations to make the fantasy real, and in some cases, seeing it start to be real.

How's this for urban fantasy:  Transformers.  A new fantasy starting from a comic in the 70s.  How many kids can tell you about each one of the characters, what they stand for, who they are and why?

The next generation.

Posted at 2:05 AM on June 18, 2009

Toshua makes a good point ... I hadn't even thought about the comics when I previously thought about urban fantasy. Have to admit that my thoughts were about things like American Werewolf in London and maybe even Ladyhawke ... nobody said URBAN had to be contemporary! Not yet anyway. The town of Aquila was a pretty huge place when you consider what the European population would have been in the era of the movie. Urban is urban, right? (I also have a copy of the paperback, which was quite well done -- but the movie came first and was better ... or is it just me droooooooling big time over Rutger Hauer???  )

What about things like the Jet Li movie, The One?

Posted at 2:49 AM on June 18, 2009

I'm going to date myself horrifically here. Catweazle. And I know as I type that, 99.3421% of you will be utterly clueless about what I'm talking about ... so I'll prove right here there IS such a thing. It was my childhood favorite...

There, see, Bucky's not QUITE ready to be shipped out to Happy Acres. Yet. Anyway, the show was a time-travel piece about a wizard from the 10th century who gets transported to 1969. The antics were pure joy. It was written by the same guy who later made the Robin of Sherwood series.

And this one really -- to me -- nails the essence of what UF really is:

"A fantasy aspect depicted as being real, in a background setting that is representational of reality."

How does this sit with all???

Angela: You're dead right, AEON FLUX is science fiction. remember, it was *Bucky* saying that, off the top of my head, not Sara ... I still halve half of a sorta-kinda impression of the movie as UF, because it has a very weird, tangential connection with the reality in which we all live. Those people ARE us, in their cloned forms -- what sticks out in my memory is the flashback to the street scene. Gives you a shiver. They're us. Or, we're them. You're right, it's SF, but to me I'm always going to have that "Urban Fantasy" kind of reaction to it, because of that flashback scene...

Cool discussion, guys. I'm enjoying this.

How about Harry and the Hendersons?!

Posted at 3:00 AM on June 18, 2009

Here is the pertinent part of the email discussion I had with Mel. Quoting myself:

***

I would suggest an "Urban Fantasy" category as well, but as there is a tremendous amount of disagreement as to what qualifies, I almost hesitate. There are purists who consider only "supernatural and/or fantasy beings living in AUs of real, modern cities, with a tough kick-ass heroine keeping them in line" (e.g., Anita Blake) as the only "true" urban fantasy. Others consider any story where supernatural beings are living in AUs of real, modern cities, even with no uber-huntress as the POV character, to also be Urban Fantasy. It seems to depend on which "expert" you talk to and what day of the week it is. :-)  

***

I raised the topic because I'm concerned, due to the popularity of the genre right now, that if someone came in surfing for UF and didn't see a specific category for it, they may assume that the type of story that fits their definition of it doesn't exist here. We don't want readers to have to think where else such stories may be virtually shelved: fantasy, paranormal, horror?  

On the other hand, because of the controversies surrounding the definition (there is a decidedly "Your Urban Fantasy Isn't Real Urban Fantasy" sentiment among some authors), I think there needs to be a clear definition as to what GLBT Bookshelf considers fitting for Urban Fantasy.

For the sake of readers, I think it should be a broader, more inclusive definition, such as the one given in Wikipedia:

"Urban fantasy is a subset of contemporary fantasy, consisting of novels and stories with supernatural content, set in contemporary, real-world, urban settings—as opposed to 'traditional' fantasy set in wholly imaginary landscapes, even ones containing imaginary cities, or having most of their action take place in them."

"The modern urban fantasy protagonist faces extraordinary circumstances as plots unfold in either open (where magic or paranormal events are commonly accepted to exist) or closed (where magical powers or creatures are concealed) worlds."

***

The Wikipedia goes on to quote critic John Clute, who states that what distinguishes urban fantasy from other varieties of contemporary fantasy is the role the urban setting takes in the story. Clute says (bold emphasis mine), "A city is a place; urban fantasy is a mode. A city may be an icon or a geography; the UF recounts an experience. A city may be seen from afar, and is generally seen clear; the Urban Fantasy is told from within.... Urban Fantasies are normally texts where fantasy and the mundane world interact, intersect and interweave throughout a tale which is significantly about a real city." 

It's my opinion that the Wiki, and particularly Clute's final sentence, provides a specific yet inclusive definition. 

Thanks for opening the discussion! 

--Jaye

Posted at 10:02 AM on June 18, 2009

I could go for the Wikipedia definition, sure. [nods to Jaye]

I think we need to be careful of tossing in everything but the kitchen sink, though.  The whole point here is to let readers find things, right?  So it really doesn't matter what someone thinks "should" count as UF, or finding a loophole in the definition (yes, it really <i>does</i> have to be modern, even if "urban fantasy" doesn't specifically say so) or whatever.

For example, my problem with sticking super hero type stories into the UF pot is that they already have a genre of their own -- super hero stories.  Some dude flying around in a cape really doesn't fit in with the genre known right now as Urban Fantasy, even if he's using magic to fly.  I think if we added a category called "Super Heroes" that'd make it incredibly clear to anyone browsing exactly what's in that grouping.  People already think of super hero stories as their own genre -- that's marketing gold, so if we have any stories like that (and I know there are at least one or two in Torquere's Prizm imprint) then we should take advantage of that by calling them what they are.

If we wanted to (or more to the point, if the authors wanted to) cross-list stories in other categories, Batman would be more SF than UF; nothing about him is magical.  Superman is SF; he's an alien from outer space, and there are (lame but existing) non-magical explanations for how he does everything.  Transformers would definitely be SF.  Doctor Strange could be UF, but I personally would never go browsing through a UF category looking for him.

Maybe that's the answer, though -- we need more data.  What's important is what the readers, the shoppers, think and where they'd go looking for this or that type of book.  It doesn't do any good to cross-list a bunch of books in Category X if hardly anyone who wants to buy books thinks to look for them there.  And having a category cluttered with stuff that doesn't really belong there will make it harder for shoppers to find the books they <i>do</i> want.

I know that if I tried browsing through a Historicals category, and kept having to sort through a bunch of science fiction (because after all, aliens have history too) I'd eventually get annoyed enough to quit and go to a new store that sorted things better.

Collecting opinions would probably be a good idea.  Some books are going to be obvious, but if you're wondering where to list a particular book, maybe do a survey on your blog or journal (or both?) asking people where they'd go searching for that book.  Give the categories available here as options, with an "Other" in case someone thinks we're missing something.  Any significant number of votes would at least provide a decent idea of where readers are likely to go looking for that kind of book.

Angie

Posted at 11:00 PM on June 18, 2009

As a reader, alternate history, steampunk, urban fantasy, and magical realism all sort of blur and shade for me. I tend to write across (or between) genres, so the labels aren't that important or meaningful to me as a writer.

As an author, however, I couldn't agree more with Angie.  We should have fairly clear-cut genre labels so readers and others can find us easily.  If that means that something of mine has to be listed in both sci-fi and fantasy, thereby potentially disappointing a reader who cam to that list looking for something specific, well, I guess I'll take that chance. Another reader, one who might be looking for something like what I write but not know whether to look in sci-fi or fantasy, will find me, and I'd rather connect with a new reader then worry about annoying a lover of a particular genre who wasn't going to like my stuff anyway.

Looking this over, I fret that it might be read as petulant -- not at all!  I'm trying to be realistic about publishing as a business (that's been the most eye-opening thing for me, and sometimes the toughest to deal with). I hope I'm learning! :)

Lee

Posted at 4:30 PM on June 19, 2009

As a reader of Sci/Fi, Fantasy, Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance, (though there are some grey area's) here is how I distinguish them. As a reader my focuss is not the differece between Fantasy and Urban Fantasy but between Fantasy and Paranormal Romance.

Sci/Fi - has a scientific explanation for everything, even if it is farfetched.

Fantasy - as soon as Magic comes into play it is a Fantasy. If the "magical" elements have been given a scientific explanation then it goes back to being Sci/Fi.  Let the force be with you.

Urban Fantasy - takes place on Earth, in the here and now but with magical elements.  It doesn't have to take place in a city per say for me but it has to have the feel of "down the road from your place this is happening".  It may have aspects of romance in it but the main focus of the book is not the relationship between two characters but the quest they are on or the challenge they are facing.

Paranormal Romance - has magic but the focuss of the book is the relationship between two characters who also may have a quest happening or a challege they are facing.  The goal of the story is to arrive to a HEA conclusion.  If they save the world in the process of arriving at their HEA then YEAH! 

Posted at 3:21 AM on July 12, 2009